I must say that this little experiment has gone better than I hoped: Thank you all for reading, considering and participating!!
So far, I’ve tried to avoid chiming in with my views on all of this, to just let the conversation flow along naturally. I’ve had a couple of little prompts dropped in of course, but that’s it.
There are a couple things I would offer today, however. First, we seem to have a number of colonists with us who like the idea of taking our worship assembly back to what it was at the beginning, before we picked up so many bad habits, before we developed so many traditions and customs that seemed to divide us. I must say that I see this the same way; it’s a chance to begin anew. I would add to that the fact that I’ve spent the better part of my adult life serving in churches that have that ideal as the fundamental reason for our brotherhood’s existence. Yep, my background is in a unity movement based upon the idea that we should worship on a first century model, using the Scriptures as our only guide.
Our Movement began in the early days of the 19th century, and by mid century it was the second largest Christian group in America, but since then it has split at least twice in disagreements about they way worship was conducted in the New Testament. That’s the short version anyway…
If this were a Seminary class, this would be the point where I said, “For next time review the New Testament and make a list of all Archetypical imperatives concerning the worship assembly, and be prepared to share your list next time, when called upon.” Sadly, this isn’t Seminary, and I’m not your professor… and a fair number of you probably aren’t quite sure what I just asked you to do. If you went to the New Testament to make a list of everything it tells us that we must do in a worship assembly, it would be a long search for a very short list. Here’s a hint, if you find 5, you have one too many. Even then, their imperative quality is inferred, not expressed.
That is what makes this challenging, and what makes division over worship absurd.
With in mind, I’d like to share a couple comments for your further consideration and discussion…
Beth Ann wrote:
I like the first comment by Kathryn and I said on the first round that I would only bring my Bible. With a bit more thought I might bring a hymnal just so we could remember the words to the old favorites. No instruments needed (even though I play one!).
I believe that everything you do everyday is worship to God. If we live our lives directed toward God then that is who we worship, everyday. I have to say here that as sinful broken people, we don’t ever do this perfectly, but every day is a new day to keep on trying!
Having said all that (I will get to the point soon, I promise!) I feel that if we all come together with this in mind, we wouldn’t need the “structure” that the church has now (church-think?). We could meet together, share a meal, pray together, read scripture, sing a hymn and there you have it.
There isn’t any way that as a group we wouldn’t bring our experiences with us so it may be a bit strange at first, but if we all keep Jesus at the center it should smooth out.
paulfg wrote:
I wonder if we are approaching this back to front. A list of “what works for me” is what we are ach presenting – which is a list destined to become as divisive as all the lists across all the churches right now.
Might not a better way be to list our “divisive dislikes”? To identify what we do not want to take, and to find through such a list commonalities of dislike – which might point us all towards a commonality of like.
After all, we will be preaching to the converted!
And once again it’s your turn; what are your thoughts?
Life Project Blog 
One thing most denominations leave out is having the Lord’s Supper every Sunday. That’s what makes meeting on Sunday special. We can sing, pray, read scriptures, etc. any day of the week. Acts 20:7ff goes into it. However, the translation is vague and I think that has caused a lot of confusion. In Greek it reads, “They met for a religious meeting on each and every first day of the week without exception for the purpose of breaking bread ritually.” Since Greek is specific and all the translations are general, I do not know how that could be solved on Mars. The only way I can see is to take “They met on THE first day of the week to break bread” and compare it with “Remember THE Sabbath Day to keep it holy”. The Jews kept the Sabbath holy every week, not monthly or quarterly or yearly.
BTW, the movement you mention has always existed – getting back to the original first-century way. An excellent book (Traces of the Kingdom) by Keith Sissman of England traces (he read the Old English and visited the every spot where they met) traces the movement back to around 800 AD. Someone else wrote about the movement in Germany (the author’s ancestor was burned at the stake around 1200 AD). The Wandenses (called that by their enemies, they didn’t call themselves that) existed from the early, early centuries. Many denominations today take credit for a famous person trying to restore NT worship when those denominations did not even exist yet.
You’re quite right; the instinct to return to the simple form of “church” is not at all new. And… yep, communion is one of the four I had in mind…
I agree with both Beth Ann’s idea of only using the Bible and a hymnal would be nice. I also agree with Paul’s idea of starting a list of dislikes. #1 on my list would be an organ! I do think someone capable of playing an acoustic guitar would be helpful. Afterall, David played the lyre.
Don ~ you have obviously hooked me into this adventure against my intentions of passing on the opportunity. I guess it’s time to buckle up my seatbelt. Given all your daily postings, it would be helpful if you would identify the Mars colonization in our titles.
You’re in luck- an organ is way too heavy to ship to Mars… and I doubt anyone will find one in the Scriptures as an imperative.
I’m not pushing for an organ, but if the majority wants one you’re thinking way too 20th C. My daughter has the piano version of this, weighs about a pound.
in regards to Beths comment, I already agreed to what she said. We will all have our own methods ingrained in us, and our experience is part of what will shape and mold the group. As we come together, we must do our best to put our preconceived notions aside and start fresh. Easy to say, Hard too do
As to Pauls words, I love His thinking in one way. He always thinks outside the box it seems. That is a good thing. We may open up a real can of worms if we list things we dislike in worship, but I’m willing to take the plunge. One thing about Paul’s comment that I disagree with is that we are preaching to the converted. Wouldn’t our mission be the same there as it is here? To reach others that are lost on the planet? I mean, there are more than just the 13 of us there right?
Now, my dislikes in worship. First, love dancing before the Lord when the Holy Spirit moves someone to do so. But to have dancers for every song and every chorus would seem to me to be more entertaining than spirit led.
Then there are those who have rolled on the floor or made animal sounds and acted like animals when supposedly under the spirit’s influence. I would say those are under the wrong spirit’s influence and I would have part in that.
I am all for the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor 12, but these things must be done decently and in order. There is no room for pride in worshiping God.
I have never seen the need for incense too be used in worship. It is not something that I would appreciate. Nor is long drawn out ceremony in any area what long for, especially communion. The breaking of the bread is a simple thing that deserves the utmost atmosphere of worship.
I think that is all. I fear that if everyone puts their dislikes here that we will have little left in common. But it will be interesting to see where we all come from.
I wasn’t a fan of that idea for the simple reason that if we make a list of our deal breakers, then there won’t be a deal at all. If I were to toss out an idea, it would be that everyone get clear on what it means to “die to self” before anything else, but then lots of people say I’m crazy
LOL. Funny how people think you’re crazy when you are actually saying one of the most important things we need to do. Maybe I answered in too much haste and you should take out my comment. I would not be offended if you did. You’re probably right and saying that if we list all the deal breakers there won’t be a deal at all
Naw, you made a great comment Pete, because it represents the thought process every one of goes through when this comes up and it will be helpful for many other people, and that’s a very good thing.
I think listing our dislikes will quickly offend some people as they may be among their treasured likes. If we are to start anew then we need to do just that, toss everything away and go with what we can all consider the basics. In the early church they started the day in communion with prayer, readings, and the common meal (not necessarily what we call Eucharist), the day ended the same way so that each day started and ended with praise to the Lord.
Sounds to me like a way of living rather than “corporate worship” – and that seems to me to be a lovely way to move forwards. One hour a week of (potentially) contentious gatherings – or a way of living full of fellowship and community which seems to me like drawing closer without trying to draw closer at all!
??? Do we have to go to Mars to get that one off the ground 🙂
The only thing I really don’t like is to just quickly sing a song through and be done. Allow to be able to sing the chorus or a verse over more than one time. This is an allowing of the movement of the Holy Spirit in the time of worship.
As for the preaching side, the only thing I don’t like is just speaking a bunch of words from the Bible and not applying it to today. Make the Word applicable to the people today.
Sounds fair
I have been rather preoccupied with other things here of late. So I am a bit late adding my two cents. Nevertheless, I went through the previous posts and comments. So I hope I make sense.
1. This idea is not new, and something very similar has been tried. With a space ship? No. Think Pilgrims and the Mayflower. What problems did the Pilgrims solve? While I admired their fortitude, I think the Pilgrims forgot we are suppose to be salt and light in the world, not to separate ourselves on a new continent. So I don’t think their reason for coming to the New World was a good one. What would be a good reason for a Mars mission? How would it glorify God? That is the question for me, and I am not certain I know the answer.
2. Because God made each of us different, we each see Him from a different perspective, and we each find our own ways to worship Him. Therefore, the fact we have a multitude of denominations is not necessarily evil. In fact, to some extent it is just a sign of true diversity.
3. What does worship involve? To me that is a head scratcher. I know we gather together to invite God to come amongst us. I know we share bread and wine in remembrance of Him. I know Christianity is about forming a relationship with God, not a bunch of rituals. Yet just like everyone else I take comfort in rituals because they give me something to do when I would otherwise look just as confused as I am.
4. From my perspective, I think the main thing Christian worship involves is sharing Jesus in fellowship. So long as it is in keeping with what the Bible teaches, does how we worship matter? Why does the church exist? The church exists to spread the Gospel. To spread the Gospel, we have to develop a healthy relationship with our Lord, and we have to know what the Bible has revealed about our Lord. Therefore, our worship should focus on learning more about our Lord, what the Bible has revealed about Him, and making Jesus the focus of our lives. Is there a formula for doing these things? I don’t think so.
Thanks Tom, very insightful comments here. I wonder if anyone has something to share…
My suggestion for dislikes – so here goes … 🙂
a) Predictability: the order of service rules and dictates what can / can’t be included.
b) Formality: the dressing up, the turning up, the being expected to do and be (on show).
c) Membership: club rules, cliques, pretending, and hierarchy – senior / junior / new / elder
d) Holy hush before God: “reverence” and “awe” – the “right behaviour”
e) The ritual: audience (passive) and performers (proactive) set-up
Which leads to finally (for now):
f) Those who lead worship and are an unintentional unintended barrier to “corporately” drawing close to God (and just why is no one allowed to ever mention that?)
Have you changed your mind about “happy-slappy” music? 😊
🙂
Seems to me the details don’t really matter – if the gathering draws one in, draws one up, draws one closer – then happy-clappy (or tedious traditional) are “details”.
But thank you for noticing!! 🙂
See, I really do pay attention 🙂
Just a question Paul. If we decide to sing a song, doesn’t someone have to lead in a way? Even singing Happy Birtbday usually requires someone lead. I follow and agree on the others, although things myst be done decently and in order. That is scriptural.
Pete my best attempt an answer would be “spontaneity”. One person starts and the others join in. And if it is a song I don’t know, I am joining -in with spirit if not voice.
As for things being “… done decently and in order. That is scriptural.” ….
You and I have a relationship. And one I value. And you teach me things i never knew. And that teaching comes through your words. And it makes me think. And that phrase caught something deep down inside and tugged with a pain that tells me to take it to GSHJ and find out why …
I was talking to someone who also finds God in music rather than a lot of the elements of the service of worship as laid out and followed. And it crossed my mind that “scriptural” can become a snare to capture our need to know we are right. Because being right is comforting. But being right needs others to reaffirm that rightness continually. And that need can often override our personal growth and individual relationships of drawing closer to our God. And that need often means we gather together and feel alone. That others needs comes before my own – which can be explained away scripturally as well (and is – which has the effect of making me feel guilty and closer to “man’s needs” than “God”).
SO … does it have to be that way?
My thought is that scripture is how we come to God. Once there scripture has served its purpose – and the freedom of being in God’s presence is down to me and my God – and that has not yet been written into scripture. And it never will be – because scripture is the living word of the past – and my relationship is of the present and future. And all I know and have experienced tells me that my God does not want me to stop at a scriptural line that I draw in the sand. That is where being right overrides all else for me.
Does any of that make any sense at all? Because if not – it doesn’t have to 🙂
((hugs))
It does make sense, and I so appreciated your persepective, as always. But please explain to me what would this worship of ours look like if it is not done decently and in order? Do you think it would achieve it’s purpose of bringing us into fellowship, or would it turn to chaos? I should have left off the scriptural part, because it really doesn’t matter if it is scriptural or not in this case. It just makes sense to me that some order would have to be maintained.
You are most kind, Pete, thank you.
Does the word “balance” work any better? As in life seeks balance. The balance of fluids, oxygen levels, food types intake, waste fluids outflow, sleep, activity, stimulation, companionship …
And perhaps the same is true of corporate worship. Of spiritual balance for each. If that is the same as your meaning of “order” we might be seeking tge same thing?
😎😎😎
I think balance would be appropriate. It’s a little different than order but it could be seen as a way of keeping things progressing without having somebody oversee or lead. If we all could courteously take turns without infringing on each other’s right to speak or sing or pray then it would all balance out. Great discussion my friend
Pete, are you sure old Paul isn’t leading you down the primrose path on this one? Didn’t the early church have any leaders? For instance, apostles, teachers, elders… I don’t recall Jesus leaving the flock without a shepherd, do either of you guys? (sorry, but I had to jump in 😊 )
Dear Mr Merritt … you are showing your wooden spoon (again?). 😎😎😎
Just a voice crying out in the Wilderness 😊
You are correct. Leaders and order are necessary. The trouble we have in this new colony is how tp determine who that will be and how order will be achieved. I rhink that is what Paul us getting at.
On the other side, Paul does have a unique perspective on his view of the Christian walk which I am still trying to wrap my head around. If you venture to his posts you will see what I mean. It brings a whole different dimension to our discussion
Ah yes, I’ve been a regular over there for almost 5 years now. Honestly there are times when I honestly have no idea what he’s talking about, and then, several days later he pulls it all together in a wonderful way. It’s all about the journey 😊
True. And magnificent journey it is
Dennis – below – makes a great point! Semantics – which (it seems to me) is the bain of order/balance/community: the different meaning of the same word. My internal definition v your internal definition. I think we have stumbled on the key to this conundrum!! 🤓🤓🤓
I would agree! A texr conversation leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to a longing ri understand some of the comments. But it definitely is a fun exercise and trying to communicate ideas. Semantics aside I’m having a great time with this discussion
Me too. Serious should be fun.
A little side note: A couple of days ago I heard on the radio of a survey that showed a portion of the respondants claiming to be “spiritual” but not “religious.” Hmmm?? Do we have a problem with a common understanding of words and concepts? (Semantics?) That’s why I seldom answer surveys or polls; there is no way to clarify their questions or my answers (nor control how they might interpret my answers to a meaning contrary to mine). Thankfully, here on Don’s TLP blog we can reply back and forth to better understand each other. I appreciate that!
Dennis! Thank you! I think you have hit the nail on the head.
I remember a work training session: “describe a dog” was the simple task – yet fifteen different descriptions were read out three minutes later. The point was made – just as you have here – and which I missed.
Any thoughts on moving past the word confusion? 🙂
“For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” 1 Corinthians 14:33. Yet, He used confusion of languages at Babel to divide the people when they were united against Him. On the other hand, we see Him allowing Alexander to unite much of the World’s language with Greek just before the coming of Jesus, so the Gospel would spread more readily. He inspired Martin Luther to translation the Scriptures from Latin into German which provided for the uniting of the several German dialects. He even provided for the spread of the scriptures by old Mao Tse Dung’s simplification of Chinese from 50,000 characters to 5,000, and making that revision the official language of China! In the USA there was Noah Webster’s 1828 “American Dictionary of the English Language” which gave Biblical definitions to the words of our language here; thus serving to unite us, somewhat, in Biblical, everyday thinking. You can likely add more examples of such language-uniting works of God.
We will be fighting the god of confusion who battles against the God of peace until Jesus returns. “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood…” Ephesians 6:12. It is given to us to “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; … .” Hebrews 12:14.
That’s not a cut-and-dried answer we would all hope for; but, for me, the answer is always pursuing Jesus. “What would Jesus say; what has He said about … ?” — End of sermon!
A side comment from the peanut gallery (actually I like to sit towards the front): Lets talk group dynamics as well. The early church was on fire in their personal lives and growing in numbers and needed growing personally. They gathered to share and pray for one another as they had a lot to share and pray for. If it was a football game they were scoring a lot of touch downs and getting sacked a lot in between.
Today we focus on how to do church. It’s coming but persecution might bring us back to early church ways….this old guy could be very wrong though
It’s a valid comparison in my view. Honestly, If we were as committed in our personal worship time, I suspect there would be a larger agreement in the worship assembly, but I too could be wrong about that.
Here’s the list from the Bible:
“And they continued steadfastly in the:
1.) apostles’ doctrine
2.) and fellowship,
3.) and in breaking of bread,
4.) and in prayers.- Acts 2:42
This is all that is needed.